Customer: One minute. Yeah, I know these things take time sometimes when you deal with a computer. Where are you located?

Salesman: I’m in India right now, but we do have three offices. The design and development office is in India, the marketing office is in Singapore, and the registered office is in the US, in Delaware.

Customer: Can you see me now? There are two windows up here. I see others differently.

Salesman: Yes, I see you right in the middle. Nice to meet you.

Customer: Nice to meet you too. Is that other window for your sound? Is that why we have that other one?

Salesman: No, I tried to open my webcam. It’s opening another tab, so I’m not sure.

Customer: Okay, cool. Technical stuff. So this is what you do. You’re working for a company in Delaware, essentially?

Salesman: Yes, we have around 150 people on board, including marketing, design, development, mobile applications, everything. We don’t freelance.

Customer: Okay. What’s the deal, then? I shared an email with you. Did you get a chance to look at it? I want to hear you tell me what the deal is.

Salesman: First, I would like to go ahead with the feature list confirmation that I shared with you.

Customer: Go ahead. Read it one by one. Maybe I’m ignorant of some of it.

Salesman: Based on those features, I shared the payment plans with you. If you’re okay with that list, then we can help. In terms of redesigning, obviously, we would give it a complete new look and feel, make it more user-friendly, and definitely help improve the conversion ratio.

Customer: What’s that third one?

Salesman: To improve the conversion ratio.

Customer: To improve the conversion ratio. Basically, make the site work better in the back end?

Salesman: Conversion ratio means improving your sales as well, in terms of getting more inquiries. If your website is more user-friendly, then obviously more people landing on your site will feel more comfortable.

Customer: You know what I sell.

Salesman: You provide classes, right?

Customer: Yeah, so I’m selling time. It’s a tough, saturated market, you know.

Salesman: Yeah. But I was looking at your website, and to be honest, it’s very basic.

Customer: Yeah. I thought I heard you say “busy.” No, it’s very basic. I mean, wow, a calendar. Wow, a test. Wow, a registration form. Really cutting edge. It sucks, but it’s all I can do by myself. And I think, from what I’ve learned about digital marketing, the website itself isn’t the main thing that brings you customers. It’s not mainly about aesthetics, the colors, things like that.

Salesman: Right. It’s not only about aesthetics.

Customer: Good. I’m glad you agree. Go ahead. Tell me one thing. Tell me two things. Tell me five things.

Salesman: This is not only about the website. This is about the website as well as the marketing. Both are important. Just having a good website, if you’re not getting relevant traffic, you will not get sales. And if you’re doing very good marketing but you have a bad website, still you will not get inquiries.

Customer: And that’s what you do? The marketing?

Salesman: Yes, we do.

Customer: Do you really think that your marketing power would make the fee I must pay, the time, and the input of new money remotely worth my while? I know they all say, “Oh, we can’t guarantee,” and I think, well...

Salesman: I’m not recommending marketing at this stage. At this stage, we need to go through the website first. Marketing is not going to help you right now. To be honest, marketing is not going to help you.

Customer: What’s going to help me is what I want to do.

Salesman: You have to go in stages. First you have to fix your website, and then you have to go with the marketing, because just doing marketing and getting traffic is not going to help you.

Customer: Okay. So how much money, how much time, and how sure are you about the website? Do you feel like the website is a very important thing to spend some time on?

Salesman: Yes. First we have to fix the website, and then we go with the marketing. Just doing marketing is not going to help.

Customer: Okay. So how much time?

Salesman: For the website, it is $1,350. That is $1,350 for the whole website, redesigning it from scratch, giving it a complete new look and feel, having mobile-responsive pages. The layout will be quite user-friendly, and obviously the website will be AI-supported as well, because these days AI is in trend. It’s not just about Google anymore. You must be in the AI results as well.

Customer: Yeah, man, that’s great. I believe you’re the expert. I believe you. So what would you say I’m looking at for return? You know what my question is. Return on investment. ROI. What can you honestly tell me that makes me feel like, “You know what? Sold. He believes in it so much I’m going to pay him”?

Salesman: I’m not going to give you a complete exact ROI. Just understand the process. Nobody can give you an exact figure like you’ll be getting five times or ten times. It’s not like that.

Customer: If I put this much here on Monday... Obviously? No, not obviously. I don’t know you. I’ve never heard of this company. The email didn’t have a signature at the bottom. Is this a scam from Nigeria? I don’t know. Let’s give this guy a chance. He might know more about this than I do. But if you can convince me—Ross, listen—you want to find work, and you’re not working enough for yourself with this stupid website. Give me one month and $3,000 and you’ll have more students than you can handle. If you can sell me on that...

Salesman: This is what I’m telling you. I’m making you aware of the process. You have to understand the process.

Customer: I don’t care. You’re the guy who has to understand that, not me. I’m the guy who has to pay you.

Salesman: Yes, but you have to understand the process as well. What exactly the input will be, and accordingly you can judge the output. If you’re working in the right direction, definitely you will get results. It may be A, maybe B, maybe C, but you will get results. It’s just common sense. It’s not rocket science.

Customer: All right. So thank you. No offense, but I’m not really excited about how much you’re going to help me get some money rolling.

Salesman: Getting money is the output. That is the output everyone wants.

Customer: Oh, I see. Yep. I’m getting money. But do you seem to think that I’m a fool? Would you say I’d be a fool to go on this way any longer? That it would not be an expense, but actually a saving, to pay you to help me?

Salesman: Obviously, you have to invest something to get some returns.

Customer: Yeah. I’m just asking, in terms of my website, would I really be a fool not to use your services? Because you know in your heart of hearts this is not only about your services.

Salesman: It’s not about our services only. There are many brands available in the market. It’s up to you. Whoever you want to select, you can select. I’m telling you about the process.

Customer: Well, aren’t you trying to sell me something? I got the email. It’s got prices on it, right? I thought your email was advertising services to improve websites. And if a website is better, it should make more money. The only reason anyone wants a better website is so that it makes money, or more money. That’s what you sell, right?

Salesman: Yes.

Customer: Good. Do you think it’s a good idea? Honestly? I don’t know if “obviously” has got me convinced. Can you say something to make me feel like this guy knows he’s going to fix this? There are a lot of scams and people you don’t know on the internet. I’ve never met you in person. You could be AI.

Salesman: You can check.

Customer: I don’t want to. It’s boring. I’m joking. I think you’re a real person, and probably a very good person. I’m not trying to tell you I don’t believe you’re nice. But before I spend this amount of money, I’d love to be really sold. I don’t know if I feel like I’d get off the phone with Nigel and be sure everything is going to be fine.

Salesman: I’m not selling a pen. I’m not selling an iPhone. It’s not about a product. It’s about services.

Customer: Selling services. And you believe your services can work for me?

Salesman: Definitely.

Customer: All right. ROI style. How much?

Salesman: I cannot commit an exact figure. But some rough idea: if you are getting relevant traffic and the website is good, then obviously you can improve. If you are getting X traffic right now and getting ten clients every month, once you have a good website and strategic marketing, then obviously you can expect much more. The reason I’m telling you this is because your existing site is messy.

Customer: I made it myself. I never took courses in it. It’s just been self-learning.

Salesman: I understand.

Customer: I know. I’m not defending it. I just wanted you to know that I made it because I had a school in Taiwan, and I’m no longer in the physical school. I thought if I was going to do this online, I should have a website. So that’s what inspired it many years ago. It sort of sits there, and I tinker with it. I’m taking a course to change the information on the pages and make it nice in different languages. Twenty languages strong. Do you deal with twenty languages? Because you’re going to fix my website.

Salesman: Yes, that is a lot of work. But we are not necessarily going to change the structure. We can fix it, but if we have to change the structure, then we have to redesign it. It’s like a building. If you are just changing the interior, that is one thing. But if the layout itself needs work, then the new website will be completely different.

Customer: Yes. I’m just trying to find the email you sent. Did you send it yesterday or the day before yesterday?

Salesman: I think Friday. Day before yesterday.

Customer: I’m just trying to find it. No offense, but different people get sold better by different people. It’s not you, it’s me. I’m a weirdo. It takes a certain kind of weirdo to get through to me. Probably someone loud and dramatic.

Customer: Sorry about this. I could just search your email. Nigel Smith is who I should search, right?

Salesman: Yes.

Customer: Nice name. My uncle’s name is Troy Maxwell. Guess what he does?

Salesman: What does he do?

Customer: Listen to his name. Troy Maxwell. He works in banking and has all his life. He’s got more money than God. With a name like Troy Maxwell, of course. A stupid name like Ross... Look at this website. It just looks like Ross.

Customer: I see what you’re doing. It says, “Meanwhile sharing websites which we have recently designed.” Okay, I got that. You help big names. What I’m doing is a lot different than the big names. Not completely different, but different. Pay-as-you-go. That’s different.

Salesman: Once you open those websites I shared with you, you’ll understand what kind of layout and structure I’m talking about.

Customer: I know them all because I would like to compete with them someday somehow. I know the teachers. It would not be hard for me to handle a thousand students if they burst through the email tomorrow. That part I can do. But how can I get this thing to work and bring me a thousand students in one day? I don’t know. And I’ve looked into it a lot. Believe me, I’m just a mere mortal. I’m kind of stupid too.

Customer: That’s very nice of you to send those examples. I appreciate it. Thank you. I won’t waste any more of your day unless you want to keep talking. I could talk to you all day, but you probably have a life. Do you want to tell me anything else?

Salesman: I would like to confirm the feature list. If you confirm it, I’ve already shared the payment plans as well. If you like these details, you can confirm any one of the payment plans if you want to go ahead with the website first.

Customer: I really do appreciate you taking the time. I’ll look at it carefully today. But I want you to promise me that if you get an epiphany—“Oh Jesus, that Ross idiot, I should have told him this. If he knew this, he’d be excited”—that you’ll tell me. Because right now nothing is making me feel like there are going to be a lot of students coming through. I’m sure there would be a couple, but maybe I’m not being sold strongly enough to go for it right now. I certainly don’t have the money for it, so you’d have to sell me on the fact that I will have the money for it. I’m not about to take a reckless risk like that.

Salesman: Suppose you consider a physical shop in a market. You have a product you want to sell, but nobody knows about your shop. A few visitors may come. Once they see your shop, if it looks very basic, outdated, messy, and scattered, they may leave. On the other hand, if they see a mall where everything is organized and easy to find, they feel more comfortable. That is what I’m telling you. Think of your website as an online shop.

Customer: I get it. I know what we’re doing. But is what we’re doing something I can be sure will work in terms of ROI? That’s where you lose me.

Salesman: If I tell you to go straight two kilometers and there will be a white house there, how can someone convince you of that? I’m telling you the fact.

Customer: So how much time would it take to get this done if I paid?

Salesman: Twenty-five to thirty business days.

Customer: That’s not bad at all. And in twenty-five to thirty business days, how sure are you that at least some students will be coming and paying for something?

Salesman: In thirty business days we are going to have the new website.

Customer: Okay, let’s go sixty business days. Why not? Let’s be generous.

Salesman: No, I’m just telling you the facts.

Customer: Okay. I’m a very imaginative person.

Salesman: I know.

Customer: You and me together, this should be on TV, because I’m very La La Land and you’re very linear. Forgive me. I’m listening. Continue.

Salesman: No problem. So, in thirty days we have a new website. Once the new website is launched, then we are going to do SEO—search engine optimization—for the next four to six months. In that time, you will start ranking on the first page of Google organically. Apart from that, we are also going to do Facebook marketing and Google Ads. Google Ads is paid marketing, in which you credit an amount to Google and every click costs you. We are going to manage the Google Ads for you, target the right audience, set up the campaign, and execute it.

Customer: Right.

Salesman: People who are actually looking for these kinds of services will start seeing your website. Once they click, a certain amount is debited from your AdWords account and credited to Google. The cost per click depends on the keywords and how competitive they are.

Customer: I understand that. I learned about this. I took a course on it. I understand how some words cost more than others. But I don’t care about any of that. I just care about ROI. Wouldn’t that be the most important thing?

Salesman: ROI is the outcome. Without doing something, you cannot expect the outcome. I’m telling you about the process, step by step.

Customer: So you’re thinking this is not going to take a month. It’s going to take six months before I start to see people come through the doors.

Salesman: No. One month for the website, and after that we do Google Ads. The moment we execute the Google Ads campaign, you will start getting inquiries. At the same time, SEO will be working in the background to give you organic results over four to six months.

Customer: I have a question for you. For the niche market I’m trying to find, which is better: Google or Facebook Meta?

Salesman: They have different audiences. Facebook is social media traffic, and Google captures search traffic. Both have different outcomes.

Customer: But the Google market is bigger than Facebook, of course.

Salesman: It’s not about which is bigger. Both have different sets of audiences.

Customer: I have a different opinion from my personal experience. Tell me if I’m wrong. I put $2,000 US dollars into Google many years ago and got absolutely nothing. Not one phone call. Not one email. They called every week and were so sure they would get me students. They did nothing. I didn’t even have a calendar booking page at the time, and nobody at Google told me that mattered. They just took my money. So that’s how I feel about Google.

Customer: Then I tried Facebook Meta because of my school in Taiwan. What I learned is that Facebook Meta is full of malfunctions. Something goes wrong, the page disappears, someone reports you, and the whole thing becomes a nightmare. I hate it. But in terms of targeting the exact person you want, I was under the impression Facebook Meta was better than Google. Maybe I’m wrong.

Salesman: Let me clarify the process. You used Google Ads and Facebook yourself, correct?

Customer: That’s how I learn.

Salesman: Yes, but it’s not always good to learn through bad experiences. If you understand the process, you can move forward properly. Not everyone on Google Ads gets good results. It depends on how you do it.

Customer: I appreciate the courtesy, but frankly my main concern is not the process. That’s your concern. My main concern is ROI. It’s my money.

Salesman: I could give you an imaginary figure and say I’ll make you a billion-dollar company, but that would be nonsense. I’m telling you the facts so you understand what you could achieve in forty to sixty days.

Customer: I don’t want false promises. I just want someone to convince me they feel very sure this is the right way forward.

Salesman: That’s why I’m giving you facts. So next time, you won’t be cheated. You’ll understand the basics and know what people are really selling you.

Customer: Right.

Salesman: Obviously, those processes will be done by our side because that is our responsibility.

Customer: For our $1,200? Isn’t that what it was for the whole thing? I’ll pay up front.

Salesman: The total cost is $1,200 for the website only. For the marketing, that is a different cost.

Customer: Oh, okay.

Salesman: $1,200 for the website. A modern website, mobile responsive, AI-powered. Once the site is done, then we go with the marketing. If you go with Google Ads, it is $250 per month.

Customer: Google Ads.

Salesman: Apart from that, whatever amount you spend in AdWords is separate. You may spend $500, $1,000, $5,000. It depends on your budget. We will help you decide the budget after checking the competition and the keywords in your area.

Customer: So what you’re thinking is it’s $1,200, and then maybe $200 or $300 a month after that?

Salesman: $250 per month. That is our Google Ads maintenance charge. We manage the campaigns, the setup, the profiling, everything. Whatever Google charges for the actual ad clicks, that amount goes to Google. That is not our money.

Customer: Right.

Salesman: So the $250 is just our fee for maintaining your Google Ads account each month. The rest goes to Google.

Customer: So we’re talking about an initial fee of around $1,200, then roughly $250 every month after that, for six, seven, eight, nine months or whatever, just to get and learn what the right words are. Is that right?

Salesman: Yes.

Customer: This is a nightmare for me.

Salesman: We have a marketing team. We can do all of that for you. Once you start getting results, then you start getting confidence, and maybe you increase your budget later.

Customer: Right. I appreciate you explaining it to me. I know it’s taken time, but thank you. One more question. The ESL market is saturated. I like teaching English. I’ve done it all my life. Maybe I’m a terrible teacher, but a lot of people really like me, and I had my own school for fifteen years. I couldn’t be that bad. But it is a saturated market. I’m offering packages of time: 30 hours, 63 hours, 105 hours, or pay-as-you-go. It’s only $10 to start. Do you really think that if I spend $500 a month, you’re going to hit people who want English badly enough that they’ll pay a thousand Canadian dollars? That’s only about 700 American for 30 hours. That’s reasonable. The competition doesn’t offer that. Or am I shooting myself in the face?

Customer: Reaching them is nice, but reaching them and them paying is even nicer.

Salesman: First of all, you have to reach them.

Customer: Yeah. But do you think what I’m selling is probable? That $500 could be returned in one month?

Salesman: Nobody can understand your business better than you. That’s your business.

Customer: I’m not convinced. If it does work, then my God, I should really listen and pay you. But I’m not in the financial position to do anything reckless right now. And I’ll tell you why: iLearn.tw/newsbrief. It’s all there. If you know anyone in news media, send it to them. Believe me, it’s a fair enough excuse.

Customer: If you have anything you’d like to say that would make me feel, “Jesus, yes, he knows there are people out there who want this,” then say it now.

Customer: One more question. Facebook Meta. I hate it because it’s Instagram, it’s Facebook, it’s pages, it’s a nightmare. Every time I use it, it glitches and messes up. So you guys would be doing that for me? Do you really do Facebook Meta?

Salesman: Yes, we do Facebook promotion. We have a social media team.

Customer: How come when I get a campaign going and it starts making money, suddenly it shuts down and says there has been an error? I don’t know if I’m hacked or what.

Salesman: It might be that you are doing it the wrong way. You may be violating the terms and conditions or privacy policies, and that is why they are shutting down the page.

Customer: I can’t imagine what in the world I would be doing that would merit that.

Salesman: We’ve been in the same industry for the last eight years.

Customer: Do you see other people making profit from it?

Salesman: Yes, because we do it professionally.

Customer: So you’re sure what you’re doing is professional enough. But is what I’m selling a fair gamble? You know, ROI. That’s my main concern.

Salesman: You are not a professional marketer. You are an English teacher.

Customer: Exactly.

Salesman: So just take care of your students. You don’t need to get into the technical stuff. That’s our job. We’ll take care of it.

Customer: Thank you. If I have any input or suggestions, I’ll give them to you. But honestly, I don’t care about any of that. I just care about one thing.

Salesman: Exactly. That’s what I’m telling you. If I tried to become an English teacher and do your job by copying you, I would fail because I’m not an expert. So this is our expertise. We are going to do it better.

Customer: I will find you in the night and have you killed. I’m joking.

Salesman: Definitely what you are doing now is trying to handle something you are not an expert in. You don’t have that expertise, and you are still trying to do it. That is why you are not getting results.

Customer: Oh no, I’ve been hitting my head against the wall. Boom, boom, boom. Because I don’t know. So I’m listening.

Salesman: You don’t need to worry about that.

Customer: Well, thank you. So you’re so sure that I don’t need to know? Chill out, we’ve got you? That the ROI will make it worth my while?

Salesman: The final outcome has to be right. If you are not getting anything in return, then there is no point.

Customer: Burned once, burned twice shy. Those people at Google basically robbed me.

Salesman: You did not do it professionally. That is the reason. It’s not about Google. Many businesses are flourishing because of Google.

Customer: Yes, and I wonder why it didn’t flourish for me. So my question is: how will I be convinced this isn’t another one of those situations? That’s why I’m skeptical.

Salesman: That is why I’m telling you to go in phases. I’m not telling you to spend all the money up front. First the website, then the marketing, so that you gain confidence at each phase.

Customer: Okay. So you’re not sure enough to say, “Ross, listen, we’re so sure you don’t have to pay until you start making money.” That’s not going to happen. So we’re talking maybe six months before I pay back what I’ve sunk in. When do you think the break-even mark would be?

Salesman: Once you have the website, then after ten more days we set up the Google Ads account. So I would say that in around fifty to sixty days you will start getting the hits and the traffic.

Customer: But will they really be interested enough to pay me?

Salesman: Once they start seeing your website, then your website plays a role in converting that traffic into customers. Facebook will also work.

Customer: Which one is better in your mind?

Salesman: You are comparing an SUV with a sedan. They are both cars. They have different uses and different audiences.

Customer: Well, I think a sedan is better for English-learning people. That’s my point.

Salesman: That is what I’m telling you. Both have different audiences, and both can work.

Customer: Okay. So through both platforms you think I’d get results.

Salesman: Yes. Through both. If you have money, you can spend more. But I’m telling you to do it in phases. If we are only going to start with one, then Google Ads first.

Customer: Okay. Interesting. So your experience is to try Google first because it might give a bigger bang. Google Ads gives a larger audience.

Salesman: Exactly. Through Facebook or Instagram, you have only people on social media. Through Google Ads, you can capture the whole market.

Customer: But everyone is on social media.

Salesman: Not everyone. I’m not on social media.

Customer: I just thought social media was better because the money is more targeted to the individual.

Salesman: That is a false belief.

Customer: A false understanding?

Salesman: Yes. You are still in that imaginary view. Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest—understand how they actually work first.

Customer: Well, when I made the campaign on Facebook, the selection choices to pinpoint the demographic were very clear and easy, and there were many unusual options. I thought, “Wow.” Google felt like a bigger fishnet. A lot of people might see it, but they’re not interested. That’s why I liked Facebook Meta. That was the only thing I ever liked about Meta. The rest is garbage. So that’s why I had that impression. You’re saying no.

Salesman: You did it yourself. Maybe you did not do it professionally. That is why you didn’t get results. It’s not about Google Ads or Facebook Meta. It’s about how you did it. If you use Google Ads and don’t do it professionally, your money will be wasted.

Customer: If you use Google directly, don’t worry, they’ll do a poor job unless you tell them not to. They were terrible. They kept calling every week asking for more money. I thought, “How can a company be allowed to tell someone everything will be fine and you’ll get lots of students when they know full well that may not happen?” I didn’t like that. I like honesty.

Customer: One thing about me: I’ll tell you how I think. I won’t lie to you. And the truth is I really appreciate you taking your time to explain things to me. I truly hope I have so much money someday that I can call you and say, “Here’s a tip, and I want everything you sell, because I appreciate the time.” But for now, honestly, I can’t. I want to. I’m crazy enough to want to, and maybe I should, but I can’t. I don’t have the cash.

Salesman: Yeah.

Customer: But if something happens to get this rolling faster, give me a call anytime. That’s how I have to end it. But I really appreciate your time. How old are you?

Salesman: I’m 35.

Customer: Jesus. Twenty-five or thirty-five?

Salesman: Thirty-five.

Customer: Thirty-five. Okay. You’re old too. Nice to meet you. You’re really kind. I appreciate it.

Salesman: Thank you so much. Likewise.

Customer: Bye for now. I hope I can call you soon.

Salesman: Bye-bye. Thank you.

Customer: Ciao.